Shower Thought: Coal Rolling is Stupid.

"404 - User No Longer Available" (toni-cipriani) 05/11/2018 at 09:02 • Filed to: None

4

36

Because essentially what you’re saying is “hey, look I can make a really big and long fart.”

Happy Friday.

Party-vi > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 09:07

10

Room-temperature take: rolling coal should get you a kick in the nards.

jimz > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 09:09

8

it means “I’m an inbred hick who is a wannabe alpha male, and since I can’t literally piss in your face to assert my dominance I’ll do this instead.” doing this with any modern diesel vehicle should be grounds for having it impounded.

CobraJoe > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 09:12

5

It’s the “ricer” mentality applied to trucks. The “performance trucks/vehicles do this, so it must make me faster!” fallacy.

There’s a really large portion of the enthusiast community that doesn’t realize that replicating the appearance does not equal to replicating the originally intended function.

404 - User No Longer Available > Party-vi 05/11/2018 at 09:14

5

You’re assuming coal-rollers would actually feel it... given the size.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Party-vi 05/11/2018 at 09:17

4

Kinda hard to kick the nards if you can’t find them.

kanadanmajava1 > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 09:21

6

I can understand that someone would increase their engine’s power while increasing the emissions at the same time. Not a good direction but at least there’s some point. But I don’t really get why someone would want just to increase their emissions to annoy certain people.

I hope these guys all live in some area where some company decided to forget environmental regulations and just dumped their hazardous waste on these guys property before going to bankrupt.

Alfalfa > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 09:36

5

There are plenty of adult men who still think it’s hilarious to make a really big and loud fart. I imagine there’s a lot of crossover here with coal rollers.

404 - User No Longer Available > Alfalfa 05/11/2018 at 09:40

0

“Hold my Beer” moments I guess. Minus the regret part afterwards.

nermal > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 09:52

1

Agreed that rolling coal from the stacks in the bed is pointless. A standard exhaust exit behind the right rear tire allows you to smoke out pedestrians that are standing too close to the edge of the sidewalk (or actually in the road).

This is useful to teach them proper crosswalk safety, especially if there are no puddles near them to intentionally hit.

404 - User No Longer Available > nermal 05/11/2018 at 09:58

1

Puddles are better for that purpose.

BigBlock440 > CobraJoe 05/11/2018 at 10:02

1

Is there any form of overfuelling that doesn’t get you more power? It’s not just aesthetics if it actually does something.

BigBlock440 > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 10:03

1

If a big and long fart made you stronger/faster, then sure.

Long-Voyager > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 10:16

0

Depends.

Those who crank up fuel just for sake of rolling coal=Douche.

Those who roll a little because they cranked up fuel for more power=Useful.

My truck for example runs coal free most of the time, but when I have a load behind me, it will roll coal until the turbo spools.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 10:27

3

I saw a heavily modded Cummings Dodge on Monday and he nailed the throttle and nothing, absolutely nothing visible came out of the tail pipe other than hot air and water vapor. It sounded fantastic and went like a raped ape. Proof that you don’t need to blow soot to go fast.

Derpwagon > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 10:44

0

In other breaking news, water is wet, pope still catholic. Tune in at 9 for more.

CobraJoe > BigBlock440 05/11/2018 at 10:49

1

Most overfuelling doesn’t add power. The cylinders can only draw in so much air, and adding more fuel than there is oxygen to burn it means that the extra fuel is not combusting properly, and not adding any more power.

That black smoke is a direct result of having more fuel than oxygen in the combustion process. From my understanding of a diesel engine, that at best means that you’re wasting fuel and probably not making maximum power for your setup, at worst it means you’re running particulate carbon through your exhaust system and turbo.

There are plenty of extremely powerful diesel trucks out there that don’t smoke black, or only barely produce any smoke under load. The huge black clouds coming out of a modern diesel truck either means it’s tuned to show off, or it was tuned by someone who thought that smoke=power.

Urambo Tauro > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 10:55

1

Same goes for burnouts/brakestands IMO. If showing off is the point, then I want to see the car, not a cloud. I can tolerate drifting, because at least then the car is moving away from the cloud while it’s shredding those tires. I can’t imagine how making a bunch of smoke is any fun from the driver’s seat when you’re just sitting there .

404 - User No Longer Available > Urambo Tauro 05/11/2018 at 11:01

0

Well burnouts are useful if you’re trying to warm up and clean tires for a run... but that’s about it. I thought that was why the Mustang got line lock.

fintail > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 11:35

0

Imagine a thumb and a forefinger about 1cm apart.

BigBlock440 > CobraJoe 05/11/2018 at 12:02

0

Diesels are more simple to make power, as running rich won’t reduce power. Sure, you can reduce the particulate and increase the NO x by cramming in more air and raising EGTs, but on the same token, that extra air means there’s more available to burn and pumping more fuel in will get you more power. Unlike spark ignition, there isn’t really an ideal AF ratio because there’s no point ignition that the flame has to propagate through. It’s just a trade off on what you want to have more of left at the end, air, or fuel (ignoring the effects they’ll have on temperature), soot or NO x , etc.

t0ast > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 12:16

0

For some reason, I’ve always had this song come to mind. No idea why.

(NSFW audio)

CobraJoe > BigBlock440 05/11/2018 at 13:36

1

Diesels are more simple to make power, as running rich won’t reduce power.

I’m not so sure this is true. Gale Banks, the legendary diesel tuner himself, has said: “all that black soot means the engine is inefficient and wasting power.”

I don’t know how much power can be gained by avoiding the “severe rich” situation, but it’s also pretty obvious that you’re using a lot of extra fuel for no extra power. Saying that there isn’t an ideal AF ratio isn’t exactly correct, because there is obviously a point between not using enough fuel and wasting extra fuel for no extra power.

Besides, if you still have the cats and dpf installed, all that soot from rolling coal means you aren’t going to make extra power for too long.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > 404 - User No Longer Available 05/11/2018 at 13:44

0

By that logic, coal rolling is fine from a diesel drag standpoint, because trucks tend to smoke a lot when trying to spool a very large turbo.

CobraJoe > Urambo Tauro 05/11/2018 at 13:45

0

Ultimately, excessive burnouts are just showing off. After all, not every car can do a burnout, some can’t quite overpower the traction from the tires.

I can’t imagine how making a bunch of smoke is any fun from the driver’s seat when you’re just sitting there .

That’s like saying “Drag racing is easy, you just drive straight”. There is a bit of skill needed in addition to the power, especially if you don’t have a line lock. It’s some proof that not only do you own a hot car, you know how to control that power. And if you want proof that it needs some skill, look up some burnout fail videos. There are plenty of people who try to show off and end up braking stuff or burning their clutch or even crashing their vehicle.

BigBlock440 > CobraJoe 05/11/2018 at 14:16

0

I’m not so sure this is true. Gale Banks, the legendary diesel tuner himself, has said: “all that black soot means the engine is inefficient and wasting power.”

That’s not really true. Inefficient as far as fuel consumption, sure, but if you dial back the fuel usage to clear up the exhaust, you’re not gaining more power. If you want more power out of that scenario, pump more air into it. Then, when the smoke clears, you can add more fuel to get more power again. If the exhaust isn’t visible, it could also be argued that you’re “wasting power” because if you pump more fuel into it, you’ll get more power until the point you use up all available air. I understand wanting to get the most out of fuel, air’s free after all, but I bet if you take one of Bank’s engines and crank the fuel up even more, you’ll get more power (ignoring externalities and engine durability, I don’t know why he stops where he does on any particular engine). Add more fuel and air to any engine and you’ll make more power, it’s just that gasoline requires a bit more fine tuning because you’re igniting a mixture. Though I guess there’s a point where adding more fuel won’t make more power, but that’s well past the “smoke” phase and getting into the hydro-lock phase.

Besides, if you still have the cats and dpf installed, all that soot from rolling coal means you aren’t going to make extra power for too long.

Almost nobody that’s doing this is going to keep them, but we’re not talking emissions, simply making more power.

CobraJoe > BigBlock440 05/11/2018 at 16:03

1

That’s not really true. Inefficient as far as fuel consumption, sure, but if you dial back the fuel usage to clear up the exhaust, you’re not gaining more power. If you want more power out of that scenario, pump more air into it. Then, when the smoke clears, you can add more fuel to get more power again.

You are arguing exactly the same thing, just instead of saying that there’s too much fuel, you’re saying it needs more air. Problem is, it’s not always easy to “pump in more air”.

I bet if you take one of Bank’s engines and crank the fuel up even more, you’ll get more power (ignoring externalities and engine durability, I don’t know why he stops where he does on any particular engine

Ya know, I’m going to side with the tuner who holds records for the fastest diesel truck in both the 1/4 mile and at Bonneville and has had his own tuning/engine building company for 42 years. (Notice the lack of black smoke in the burnout).

Or the lack of smoke from the JCB Dieselmax land speed streamliner?

Or the lack of smoke from the FPT Diesel powered power boat?

Add more fuel and air to any engine and you’ll make more power, it’s just that gasoline requires a bit more fine tuning because you’re igniting a mixture. Though I guess there’s a point where adding more fuel won’t make more power, but that’s well past the “smoke” phase and getting into the hydro-lock phase.

I doubt you can ever hydrolock a diesel engine with fuel alone, simply because you’re injecting the fuel after the air is compressed. The piston is no longer moving, so there’s no chance to compress the incompressible liquid fuel . But the smoke is a sign that the fuel is not burning fully, so how would adding even more fuel help gain any power?

Almost nobody that’s doing this is going to keep them, but we’re not talking emissions, simply making more power.

Anyone who lives in a state that requires emissions testing or inspections would absolutely keep their cats and dpf.

BigBlock440 > CobraJoe 05/14/2018 at 09:33

0

But the smoke is a sign that the fuel is not burning fully, so how would adding even more fuel help gain any power?

Until all of the air is fully combusted, there’s still more available to burn. Putting more fuel in there increases the chances of the fuel molecules coming into contact with the necessary O 2 molecules. Quick paint drawing to illustrate. Just because air is present in the chamber doesn’t mean it’s in contact with the fuel. 

CobraJoe > BigBlock440 05/14/2018 at 11:42

0

Putting more fuel in there increases the chances of the fuel molecules coming into contact with the necessary O 2 molecules.

Does more fuel actually increase the chance of fuel/air interaction and combustion in a modern diesel? Either there is enough swirl going on to help mix the fuel and air in the combustion chamber, or you’re injecting more fuel behind the flame front into non-reactive gasses. Maybe this strategy works for adding a little extra fuel to a conservative stock tune, but I doubt it would help much beyond that.

Besides, fuel/air mixing is something that has already been rather thoroughly researched in modern engines. Injector spray patterns, piston shapes, intake port runners, etc... These are all things that are constantly being tweaked to give maximum power for minimum fuel consumption.

BigBlock440 > CobraJoe 05/14/2018 at 11:56

0

Injector spray patterns, piston shapes, intake port runners, etc... These are all things that are constantly being tweaked to give maximum power for minimum fuel consumption . 

That’s the key here, nobody’s trying to claim that it makes the things more fuel efficient, that’s just confusing the issue. I’m looking at one thing and one thing only, power, and if injecting more fuel increases it. I’m not debating the merits of it, or if it can also be accomplished through other means, just if it makes more power. I contend that it will, in nearly every scenario. Maybe there’s a limit where injecting more fuel will reduce power, or won’t add more, I don’t know what that limit is, but it is much higher than just “visible smoke”.

CobraJoe > BigBlock440 05/14/2018 at 12:20

0

Maybe there’s a limit where injecting more fuel will reduce power, or won’t add more, I don’t know what that limit is, but it is much higher than just “visible smoke”.

Again, I highly doubt that, simply because the record holding modern diesels do not belch black smoke when they need maximum power. Though I guess there is a difference between “visible smoke” and “giant black clouds”.

BigBlock440 > CobraJoe 05/14/2018 at 12:38

0

1st, I don’t know what they’re running or why they stopped where they did

2nd, I said nearly every scenario, of which recordholders are not “nearly every”. Even if you can’t get more power (though I still think you could, they’re actively keeping the smoke down), they’re just a small subset fairly well removed from average, passenger vehicle diesels.

3rd, I have yet to see any proof where adding more fuel doesn’t make more power. (unlike gasoline, where deviations from 14.7:1 are well documented). I don’t know if anybody’s specifically sought that out, or done dyno tests that proved it out, or even an article on the theory why it wouldn’t, but I haven’t ever come across it, and nobody claiming that “they’re just doing it for looks and aren’t making power” has been able to provide. I would really like to see this, if it exists. The closest anyone’s supplied was an interview where Gale Banks gave his opinion on why you don’t need smoke to make power, not why it didn’t.

CobraJoe > BigBlock440 05/14/2018 at 13:21

0

3rd, I have yet to see any proof where adding more fuel doesn’t make more power.

Why do you need more proof? Obviously if there was more power to be had in those extreme situations, they would have used it. No one sets up a record attempt knowing that they’re not using their engines entire potential. And that Banks has put 40+ years of engine knowledge into building diesels and he says that a clean exhaust is the best way to make power? Don’t you think that a record holder and highly experienced engine builder/tuner could be on to something?

Granted, the record holders are not examples for “nearly every” diesel engine, but it’s more than enough proof that massive clouds of black smoke is not how you make maximum power.

BigBlock440 > CobraJoe 05/15/2018 at 12:09

0

Again, you’re muddying the waters with best, and Banks has been vocal about not needing smoke to make power, so he’s going to avoid it at all costs. I’ll add this conversation as another that provides no proof that overfuelling doesn’t increase power.

Here’s some words from the Banks FAQ stating that overfuelling does add power, but he doesn’t like to do it that way. Not one mention in the several times is comes up in the FAQ that it won’t, everything is “yes, but this is better for your truck”.

  http://shop.bankspower.com/faq.html#q27649

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Right … and wrong. Fuel does make power, but just adding it without improving airflow first throws off the air-fuel ratio, so the engine runs rich and mileage suffers. Over-fueling raises engine and exhaust temperatures to killer levels—a common problem associated with power chips sold by themselves. Banks whole-system approach always begins with airflow, matching fuel delivery to maintain the proper air-fuel ratio, safe temperatures, engine durability and more fuel-efficient, powerful performance. We call that our “First Air, Then Fuel” rule.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Well, three possibilities spring to mind:

1. They really don’t exceed Banks, they know it, and they fudged the numbers.
2. They only think they exceed Banks, because the tests performed were improperly conducted or skewed (a most common phenomenon.)
3. They do exceed our gains, but do so by subjecting the engine and powertrain to loads and temperatures above the durability limit. What good is all that power if it kills your vehicle?

Banks Power systems always maintain a safety margin, so engine, transmission and powertrain life is prolonged. Even Banks ultimate PowerPackage has built-in safeguards to protect the turbocharger, engine, and transmission for those owners who want to have the fastest, best performing diesel pickup around. With Banks, you get the best of both worlds – power and safety

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

A chip by itself increases horsepower by increasing fuel delivery to the engine. For people looking for a quick and dirty way to improve the power output, the addition of a chip seems like an easy way to go. The downside to using a chip alone is, that without improvements in airflow, the added fuel also creates more heat in the engine, which can result in shorter engine life and in more severe cases, engine damage.

Banks product is designed to increase airflow in conjunction with adding fuel. This allows for a power increase that is safe for the engine, and the side benefit is that fuel economy increases, because as airflow restrictions are removed, the engine operates more efficiently. Simply adding fuel by using a chip can’t give a fuel economy increase because the engine efficiency remains the same.

CobraJoe > BigBlock440 05/15/2018 at 12:24

0

So, you’re arguing that overfuelling might make more power, but at the cost of long term durability or even possible damage?

That’s just like overboosting your turbo gasoline engine. You’ll probably see more power, but for how long?

Anyways, this discussion is going nowhere.

BigBlock440 > CobraJoe 05/15/2018 at 14:36

0

My only argument is that is does indeed make more power. I reiterated that several times throughout the discussion. Sure, it’s comparable to overboosting, and any other modification of increasing power. Some will be ok for a while, some will be ok for a much shorter while. You say it’s a ricer mod because it doesn’t do anything, I said it can’t be a ricer mod, because it actually does increase power.

CobraJoe > BigBlock440 05/15/2018 at 15:28

0

But it isn’t necessary, and you don’t make much power over a properly tuned diesel. It is equivalent to a ricer mod. Just like a fart can muffler, it makes a little more power than a stock muffler, but you’re only fooling yourself if you believe it actually makes you faster.